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The NYT reports that 23 Americans, CIA agents, have been convicted for the kidnapping of a Muslim cleric off the streets of Rome. Bush critics had high hopes for the trial as a condemnation of anti-terrorism tactics. The question is, as agents under command of the administration, should President Bush or VP Cheney be held accountable for the actions of these agents? Is this an impeachable offense if agents under command of the administration are convicted?
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Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 8, 2009 2:05 PM
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We agree that Clark has been utterly immersed in the system of which he speaks.
I am skeptical of him for that, but I know that good men DO EXIST in government, however small a minority they might be.
Of course he uses the terms and descriptions of his profession, the GWOT.
That's interesting about the pre and post laws, but the law was the first victim of the GWOT. It has utterly failed Madison's dream. The Judiciary is a cesspool for the most part.
Once again Lady, you and I are on the same page 
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Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 8, 2009 9:37 AM
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JET No offense taken, my friend, now or ever. Speak your mind. I chuckled at the hypothetical "24" metaphor.
What Clark refers to are pre 9/11 U.S. anti-terror laws--before GW's horrific abuse of power and thorough perversion of justice--that allowed for "extraterritorial jurisdiction" where suspects were arrested in a host country that agreed to hand over the suspects while waiving its extradition process on the grounds that suspects were brought to the US where their human and legal rights would be honored. And they were.
Pre 9/11 U.S. anti-terror laws are not to be confused with post-9/11 U.S. anti-terror laws.
Post 9/11 "laws" have not been repealed or overturned--PATRIOT Act, Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, NSA surveillance, torture and interrogations, extraordinary renditions, Military Commissions Act--they continue to erode the Constitution and Geneva Conventions, and this is what makes Obama's acquiescence so objectionable.
I didn't recall the phrase extraordinary rendition being used in Clark's book or the Frontline piece on O'Neill, but it occurred to me in the midst of these conversations to make the connection.
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Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 7, 2009 10:01 PM
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I agree totally Jared!
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Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 7, 2009 9:46 PM
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I am actually something of a hardliner on rendition. I am even against the form it took back with Clark and Clinton. It's illegal, immoral, and self destructive. If we violate international law, we should be held accountable same as any other criminal.
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Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 7, 2009 9:34 PM
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Yes GZ, I knew that. And I apologize if my previous post sounded like it was critical of you or your position.
It was not--it was criticism of the notion that rendition as we practice it is somehow defensible, which of course is the operable, the conventional wisdom in this day of 24/7 TV news.
It is lawlessness, and that's why they do it in violation of laws.
It's like when Bush & Co, with the help of AT&Treason were illegally wiretapping many thousands of american communications. If they had merely complied with FISA, which was EXTREMELY liberal allowing 24 hours for court notification by the executive, then their actions could have been legal.
But they didn't. Because they are immoral crooks, they broke the law and took matters into their own hands.
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Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 7, 2009 8:58 PM
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That's right, Jared.
Pre vs post Bush era renditions are two different animals--and only the pre Bush cases Richard Clark was involved in.
Naomi Klein describes in Shock Doctrine how the US military School of the Americas from '46 to the mid 80's unleashed thousands of murderous torturers.
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Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 7, 2009 7:42 PM
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Extraordinary rendition by the United States
"Extraordinary Rendition" redirects here. For the 2007 film, see Extraordinary Rendition (film).
Extraordinary rendition and irregular rendition are terms used to describe the apprehension and illegal transfer of a person from one state to another.[1] "Torture by proxy" is used by some critics to describe situations in which the United States has purportedly transferred suspected terrorists to countries known to employ harsh interrogation techniques that may rise to the level of torture.[2][3][4]
It is alleged that the CIA runs a secret global abduction and internment operation of suspected terrorists, known as ?extraordinary rendition?, which since 2001 has captured about 3,000 people and transported them around the world. It has been alleged that torture has been employed with the knowledge or acquiescence of the Governments of the United States and the United Kingdom. Condoleezza Rice, then United States Secretary of State, said in an April 2006 radio interview that the United States does not transfer people to places where it is known they will be tortured.[1][5][6]
The US program prompted several official investigations in Europe into alleged secret detentions and unlawful inter-state transfers involving Council of Europe member states. June 2006 report from the Council of Europe estimated 100 people had been kidnapped by the United States' Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) on EU territory (with the cooperation of Council of Europe members), and rendered to other countries, often after having transited through secret detention centers ("black sites") used by the CIA, some sited in Europe. According to the separate European Parliament report of February 2007, the CIA has conducted 1,245 flights, many of them to destinations where suspects could face torture, in violation of article 3 of the United Nations Convention Against Torture.[7] A large majority of the European Union Parliament endorsed the report's conclusion that many member states tolerated illegal actions of the CIA and criticized several European governments and intelligence agencies for their unwillingness to cooperate with the investigation. Within days of his inauguration, President Obama signed an Executive Order opposing rendition torture and establishing a task force to provide recommendations about processes to prevent rendition torture.[8]
-wiki
What you just described is NOT what I am talking about or what "rendition" is commonly used to describe.
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Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 7, 2009 7:26 PM
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Yikes.
JET--I think you know that I agree the GWOT is a complete hoax.
Richard Clark's man in the field, FBI counterterrorism expert, John O'Neill, was the one who fingered Osama bin Laden as the leader of al Qaeda, uncovered al Qaeda cells in the U.S., and worked tireless to capture and rendition them to the U.S.
O'Neill captured '93 WTC bombers Salameh in NJ, Yousef in Pakistan, and U.S. Embassy in Kenya bomber, Odeh, in Pakistan and rendered them to the U.S. where they were read the Miranda rights, arraigned in U.S. courts, tried and convicted in a jury trial, and currently serving their sentences in U.S. supermax prisons.
Important to note, they were not interrogated or tortured.
O'Neill would have brought the al Qaeda USS Cole bombers to justice in the U.S. if not for Barbara Bodine's egocentric interference.
The Confusion Over Rendition by Richard Clark
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Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 7, 2009 6:13 PM
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Rendition and torture is immoral, unconstitutional, stands against every principle this nation is supposedly stands for, and even the CIA has come out and said the overall effect has been to lower our security.
It's a fucking stupid idea, and so is trying to defend it.
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Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 7, 2009 5:59 PM
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GZ
You describe a hypothetical, rather like any drama production including 24. Yes, it's possible to imagine a scenario in which the "ticking time bomb" is going, and interrogation of a suspect(s) might help.
But in real life, the GWOT is a fraud. Hate to say it, but it's a fraud.
This week I spent 5+ hours in two major airline terminals. First time in a long time. It's amazing how incessant is the propaganda about that GWOT--reference to which Color Code DHS has placed us under. Warnings not to accept bags from strangers--I mean PUHLEEZE, that was a joke 10 years ago when it started. Who ON EARTH accepts baggage from strangers?
Anyway, point is that rendition is ultimately based on Cheney's 1% doctrine, and it is illegal. If they have some questions they want to ask a person, why not take him into an interrogation room with an attorney?
As RK suggested, it is immoral as it is practiced.
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Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 7, 2009 5:08 PM
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Rendition isn't necessarily an illegal or heinous practice if the people arrested are treated humanely, have access to legal counsel, and brought before a court of law to stand trial. Some terrorists who were brought to justice this way are serving time in U.S. supermax prisons.
Renditions under Bush were the heinous variety we've come to know.
We don't know which brand of rendition Obama has sanctioned and allows to continue.
Obama ended torture by U.S. officials, but he didn't stop the global practice of U.S. training and funding foreigners to commit torture in our name.
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Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 7, 2009 3:26 PM
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I really thought rendition and torture would be at the top of Obama's list of Bush/Cheney behaviors to be stopped immediately.
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Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 7, 2009 3:25 PM
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What are the Brits doing with their terror suspects. Are they chasing/capturing suspects internationally? Where do they take them to question them? There must be international laws that cover these cases. I can't for the life of me understand what the moral justification for rendition could be.
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Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 7, 2009 2:01 PM
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You are so right about that GZ
The US judiciary has a wildly spinning moral compass, while some foreign courts are showing the way.
Surely there are good people with the judiciary, but as a group they are just like cattle. Madison would be ashamed of what our judiciary has become in terms of knowing the difference between right and wrong.
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Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 7, 2009 11:59 AM
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The 4th and the 14th Amendments.
The Italian court condemns rendition in the CIA case, and the Canadian court condemns rendition in the Arar case. The Canadian Prime Minister publicly apologized to Arar for the role Canada played in his abduction, imprisonment, and torture, and, of course, the gov paid him $9 million.
The U.S. Second Circuit stands alone in support of constitutional rights violations.
From the Salon article link ...
"The commentary about this case from Harper's (human rights lawyer) Scott Horton perfectly captures the depravity of what our Government has done -- and continues to do -- to Arar. His analysis should be read in its entirety, and he concludes with this:
"Arar decision will have a prominent place. It offers all the historical foresight of Dred Scott, in which the Court rallied to the cause of slavery, and all the commitment to constitutional principle of the Slaughter-House Cases, in which the Fourteenth Amendment was eviscerated. The Court that once affirmed that those who torture are the ?enemies of all mankind? now tells us that U.S. government officials can torture without worry, because the security of our state might some day depend upon it."
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