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Barack Obama was elected the 44th president of the United States, as the country chose him as its first African American chief executive.
Share your thoughts on this historic election.
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Posts:
4,912
Registered:
3/19/05
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(24688 of 24703)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 10:16 PM
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> > Whatever the outcomes are, will not change what
> they are. If the deli provides bad service the store
> is responsible, if the police provide bad service the
> state is responsible.
>
> And if I do something, I'm responsible. Only a moron
> would conclude that because three dissimilar things
> (government, store, and me) take money, perform
> activities, and are responsible for our actions, they
> are stores.
>
> Your analogy is nonsense.
>
> --
> Edited by JaredP at 11/19/2009 1:44 PM PST
JaredP,
A prostitute takes money, provides services & activities I guess is responsible for her/his actions.
Oh wait, that's also the definition of a Congressman/woman.
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Posts:
4,912
Registered:
3/19/05
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(24687 of 24703)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 10:08 PM
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Don17000,
Best of luck in cracking the rock.
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Posts:
1,863
Registered:
3/13/08
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(24686 of 24703)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 9:14 PM
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Why I hate the >>quote format.
It promotes a "mindless in your face refutation" format, which further promotes a "mindless in your face refutation" mindset.
I don't like it, I've NEVER liked it, and I don't EVER ANTICIPATE LIKING IT IN THE FUTURE!
DaN
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Posts:
2,969
Registered:
10/22/06
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(24685 of 24703)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 9:06 PM
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> Don17000
>
> Except that the post office has to deliver to
> every address in the country (they can't just skip
> areas, such as rural locations they would lose money
> on serving), and they don't get to set their own
> rates. They have to ask Congress for permission if
> they think they need to charge an extra penny. You
> think FedEx and UPS have to go through that? If a
> postal employee knowingly misdirects mail, it's a
> federal crime. Can't say the same for the others.
>
> You are seeing the difference, I hope, between doing
> business, and being a business.
>
> Yes they have to deliver to every address. Put,
> since they have a monopoly on first class and third
> class mail, any piece of mail sent, has to be sent by
> them. FedEx and UPS deliver to every address. Due
> to the Post office's monopoly allows them to provide
> cheaper service for priority and express mail, since
> they go to those addresses already.
>
Big difference, though. UPS and FedEx only have to go to out of the way places when they're called. USPS goes there every day, because they may have mail to pick up, and the customers there don't have to call.
> The post office is owned by the federal gov't, and is
> basically operated by it. If I pay more for the
> service or our tax dollars go toward it, would not
> change how much it costs per person to operate.
They get no tax dollars, and the Federal government doesn't own them. They are independent, since 1971. The only real connection is that the President appoints 9 of the 11 governors, with Senate consent. Of the other two, the chairman is selected by the 9, and deputy chair is selected by the other 10.
And I was wrong about Congress setting the rates. The governors now do that.
It
> creates an artificially cheaper service. The problem
> with any gov't run business, especially when
> politicians won't give up control, is they act
> politically, not what is in the best interest of the
> business or those who it serves.
>
No, not with any government-run business. Consider another type of government-run business. Consider emergency medicine. Or mass transit. Or a county run transit terminal, whether an airport, train station, seaport or bus terminal.
> Most businesses operate based on profits, a state, or
> gov't operates by political profits.
>
> Just as a business may choose to use the most
> profitable strategy, gov't chooses the best
> political.
>
No, a lot of the time, they just don't. If they did, they would not raise taxes as often as they do. And they would have passed a health care bill a long time ago. Lobbyists would have no clout at all unless they could deliver votes.
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Posts:
1,863
Registered:
3/13/08
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(24684 of 24703)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 9:06 PM
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I haven't had time to get caught up on this thread in depth (it appears pretty deep AND wide on first blush), but I REALLY like Don17000's comments on corporations.
Don, IMO, REALLY GET'S the nature of corporations and their pernicious effects on American democracy. There's some SERIOUS THERE there IMO.
Secondly and finally, I SERIOUSLY doubt whether enough Americans DAILY think about and appreciate the difference between the terms "Democracy" and "Capitalism." There IS a difference, you know? Perhaps THAT should be a main point of educational advancement?
DaN
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Posts:
2,686
Registered:
6/8/09
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(24683 of 24703)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 8:34 PM
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> > Right.
> >
> > In a capitalist system the corporation is
> expected to
> > maximize profit- period. Any person who is not
> a
> > "stakeholder" (on the board of directors and the
> CEO
> > and his personal staff) can be classified into
> 2
> > categories:
> >
> > 1. Sheep to be sheared (customers).
> These
> > Sheep are to be exploited for maximum profit.
> Give
> > them the least value for their money, and get as
> much
> > money from them as you can. Watch the film
> > Glenngarry Glen Ross and you'll get the
> idea.
> > " A-B-C. A-Always, B-Be, C-Closing. Always be
> > e closing, always be closing."
> >
> > 2. Enemies (competition, vendors,
> employees).
> > These people either steal Sheep from the
> > e Stakeholders or worse yet, have a negative
> cash
> > flow claim against the Stakeholders for either
> > services, supplies, or wages. These claims must
> be
> > minimized without mercy.
> >
> > So, when well meaning people say that
> "Government
> > should be run like a business," they don't know
> what
> > they are asking for. I don't think a
> Representative
> > Democracy should treat me like either a Sheep to
> be
> > Sheared or as an Enemy.
>
longball:
> What simplistic nonsense.
What do you expect in 4 paragraphs? And, who the fuck asked you anyway?
The point, Sunaz pretends to think that private enterprise perform government services oh so much more "efficently." Too bad he doesn't understand what productivity is.
In the world of the Conservative, these services should be done by private enterprise because their pals the Capitalists can skim money off the top. Money that would have otherwise gone to the people to be helped. But, you know what? Fuck 'Em. They are weak, right?
The real weaklings are the Conservatives.
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Posts:
2,969
Registered:
10/22/06
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(24682 of 24703)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 8:26 PM
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> Don17000
>
> No, it isn't. A corporation is just an
> artificially created entity. It doesn't have to do
> any business, doesn't have to own anything, pay
> anything, or have any money. It just has to be
> registered in the records of the state wherein it's
> incorporated. You can form a corporation and never do
> a thing with it. The corporation still exists.
>
> A business can be a form of corporation, but doesn't
> have to be.
>
> Are you kinding me? A corporation is a form of
> business. It is a type of business. It is a form of
> ownership of a business.
>
No, I'm not kidding you. A corporation is only a construct on paper. There are thousands of shell corporations created every year, corporations which are not businesses, and which do no business. Most of them are offshore, in places like Panama or the Caymans, or Netherlands Antilles.
I know this, because my father had a Swiss and a Panamanian one when he was alive. He formed them to eventually receive funds from a business deal he was working on, but the deal, which also involved a Brazilian company was never completed. The others in the deal had similar corporations in Bermuda and Curacao.
These corporations' only purposes were to own shares of another corporation. Others are formed, whose only purpose is to be a barrier to taxation. It does no business, it owns nothing except shares of another corporation, it has no money or other assets; it has directors who do meet only once a year because the law requires it, and the directors meet, decide they have nothing to discuss, and adjourn.
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Posts:
2,969
Registered:
10/22/06
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(24681 of 24703)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 8:11 PM
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> Actually, they are usually run as separate profit
> centers, which is to say, similar to being their own
> businesses. Similar to the way Lincoln and Mercury
> are divisions of Ford, but more like the service dept
> and fleet sales dept of a dealership.
>
> They have a budget, just a the FD and PD do. They
> are accounted for separately, but fall under one
> budget/ balance sheet. I do think it is a fair
> analogy.
>
> You want to look at departments that aren't profit
> centers, try those that just can't generate revenue.
> Like the human resources department, or the IT
> department.
>
> I had thought of that, but went with my first
> choice.
>
> A state is a business. The purpose may be different,
> but in the end it is a business. As I said under the
> exact definition, it probably would not fit or an
> english teacher would not agree. But, at the end of
> the day it is a business. A state needs revenues in
> other to operate, some of which is by law and some of
> which is by choice. There are laws that businesses
> must follow and expenses incurred because of, just as
> states must follow laws regarding services.
>
They have similarities, granted. But also dissimilarities. A business produces goods or provides services, and it generates most of its revenue from the sale of those goods and services. Its customers do not have to do business, and if they can decline services don't want and not incur the expense, or if they didn't like the way the services were provided, they can refuse to pay, it's only a civil matter.
A government may also provide goods and services, but that accounts for the bulk of its expenses, and actually very little if any, of its revenue. Its revenue comes from taxation. The taxation must be paid whether any services are used or not, and it doesn't matter if the customer is satisfied with the services or goods provided, the customer must still pay. Failure to do so is a punishable offense.
> A state should be run like a business. It seems to
> me your equation is business=evil. That is not the
> case. But, don't act like gov't is any different,
> they exploit people too.
No, a state should not be run like a business, unless its purpose is the same. The purpose of a business is to generate profit. It cannot exist simply to serve the public. A business must serve itself first.
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Posts:
3,205
Registered:
5/8/06
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(24680 of 24703)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 2:40 PM
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> Most businesses operate based on profits, a state, or
> gov't operates by political profits.
>
> Just as a business may choose to use the most
> profitable strategy, gov't chooses the best
> political.
>
> So, yes a gov't/state is a business, whether we want
> it to be or not.
Contract law 101. Every business engages in commerce ie the buying and selling of goods or services. Every sale is by definition a contract.
Contracts must by law contain certain elements - a meeting of the minds, offer and acceptance, mutual consideration, performance or delivery, good faith etc.Here's an elementary explanation.
NONE of those elements are present when dealing with the government. You may not opt out. You are given no choice.
The government is not a business.
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Posts:
13,016
Registered:
2/5/06
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(24679 of 24703)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 12:09 PM
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> > Right.
> >
> > In a capitalist system the corporation is
> expected to
> > maximize profit- period. Any person who is not
> a
> > "stakeholder" (on the board of directors and the
> CEO
> > and his personal staff) can be classified into
> 2
> > categories:
> >
> > 1. Sheep to be sheared (customers).
> These
> > Sheep are to be exploited for maximum profit.
> Give
> > them the least value for their money, and get as
> much
> > money from them as you can. Watch the film
> > Glenngarry Glen Ross and you'll get the
> idea.
> > " A-B-C. A-Always, B-Be, C-Closing. Always be
> > e closing, always be closing."
> >
> > 2. Enemies (competition, vendors,
> employees).
> > These people either steal Sheep from the
> > e Stakeholders or worse yet, have a negative
> cash
> > flow claim against the Stakeholders for either
> > services, supplies, or wages. These claims must
> be
> > minimized without mercy.
> >
> > So, when well meaning people say that
> "Government
> > should be run like a business," they don't know
> what
> > they are asking for. I don't think a
> Representative
> > Democracy should treat me like either a Sheep to
> be
> > Sheared or as an Enemy.
>
> 
>
> Unplugged the claim of innovation and progress, which
> can easily be countered with sustainability. Sounds
> like an interesting conversation.
or LOOPS back to be subjected to "OOPS," of capitalism.
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Posts:
13,016
Registered:
2/5/06
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(24678 of 24703)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 12:06 PM
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Oh, I forget to put (D) there.
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Posts:
13,016
Registered:
2/5/06
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(24677 of 24703)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 11:52 AM
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Thing seems to bother the college students these days.
A decade of wars, energy spikes, privacy violations, fear mongering, burst of housing bubble, bailouts, etc., don't seem to bother the college kids until a whopping fee hike.
These little fuckers suit themselves in the world they find.
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Posts:
13,016
Registered:
2/5/06
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(24676 of 24703)
Nov 20, 2009 11:46 AM
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> I see your being a real (I) lasted all of an hour,
> lol.
PW,
Love?
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Posts:
9,549
Registered:
3/25/08
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(24675 of 24703)
Nov 20, 2009 11:46 AM
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> My name is infoseek. I'm a liberal Democrat, and not
> one of those fake ones too.
>
> Small business are facing credit crunch. President
> Obama is promising fi-nancial help. Why not lace
> small business fi-nan-sil assistance with incentives
> to allow employees to form new unions instead of
> joining the existing mob bosses? Wouldn't that be
> win/win for everybody?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> infoseek (D)
I see your being a real (I) lasted all of an hour, lol.
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Posts:
2,183
Registered:
6/23/09
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(24674 of 24703)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 11:44 AM
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Don17000
Except that the post office has to deliver to every address in the country (they can't just skip areas, such as rural locations they would lose money on serving), and they don't get to set their own rates. They have to ask Congress for permission if they think they need to charge an extra penny. You think FedEx and UPS have to go through that? If a postal employee knowingly misdirects mail, it's a federal crime. Can't say the same for the others.
You are seeing the difference, I hope, between doing business, and being a business.
Yes they have to deliver to every address. Put, since they have a monopoly on first class and third class mail, any piece of mail sent, has to be sent by them. FedEx and UPS deliver to every address. Due to the Post office's monopoly allows them to provide cheaper service for priority and express mail, since they go to those addresses already.
The post office is owned by the federal gov't, and is basically operated by it. If I pay more for the service or our tax dollars go toward it, would not change how much it costs per person to operate. It creates an artificially cheaper service. The problem with any gov't run business, especially when politicians won't give up control, is they act politically, not what is in the best interest of the business or those who it serves.
Most businesses operate based on profits, a state, or gov't operates by political profits.
Just as a business may choose to use the most profitable strategy, gov't chooses the best political.
So, yes a gov't/state is a business, whether we want it to be or not.
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